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In this interview, we talk with Carol Dweck, Lewis and Virginia Eaton Professor of Psychology at Stanford University, and leading researcher on motivation. Dweck’s research focuses on why people succeed and how to foster success—and is very well-known for discovering and defining a theory of mindset. We talked with Carol about our focus on supporting the adults in the system for quality improvement and the ways in which the job of the early educator can be very stressful. Carol described how fostering growth mindsets can create more supportive environments for adults and children in early education settings. Key excerpts from the interview follow here.

Nonie: I would love to hear from you on the question: What does a growth mindset look and sound like in schools and learning organizations?

Carol: Great question. In a classroom, it looks like unbridled excitement about learning, taking on challenges, trying new things, sticking to them and figuring them out, persistence, and teacher-student collaboration. You’ll see it in how the child feels about progress. Is progress noted and complimented? How do kids feel about mistakes? Do they get excited? Do they feel and learn they are creating stronger brains? We also see that there’s a norm of valuing challenges, effort, and trying new strategies. It’s collaboration between adults and children, and it’s thinking, “Let’s figure this out together.” You know, this is what the modern world will require of kids.

Nonie: In so many ways what you describe is actually a lot of what is known about a high-quality preschool learning environment. And many of those behaviors and dispositions are very alive in our youngest children. You also used the term teacher-student collaboration. In the traditional school, we sometimes see more of an authoritative dynamic between teachers and students. What are you telling leaders about how to lead and manage for a growth mindset among adults?

Carol: What we found through our research is that employees take more risks if they perceive that the company has their backs. People in these companies characterized by growth mindsets said the organization values collaboration and teamwork and believes that everyone can develop their talent and can act on that. And people said they felt empowered. In contrast, we saw lots of reports of cheating going on in organizations characterized by fixed mindsets.

Nonie: So how do we grow adults and young children- and get them to problem-solve in this way? Especially when an effort to push quality means we have pushed metrics, which had a positive intention(s). But we also see how this sometimes discourages experimentation.

Carol: It’s kind of heart-breaking. Standards-based testing and accountability was meant to ensure kids are learning, and now we’re seeing such an intense focus on doing well on a test. The more we bring in heavy evaluative tests, the less teachers will feel they have the freedom to experiment and find what works better for the different students in their classroom. Let me just tell you a quick anecdote of a really excellent teacher. When she taught summer school, she did all kinds of growth mindset things and the kids flourished and loved it, even those who had hated school. Then during the year, she said she couldn’t risk using new practices when the emphasis was put on the students doing well on the test. So much emphasis was put on performance- for the kids, for the school, for her- so during the year, she reverted to more regimented, drill-type practice. She was trying to encourage students and support them but was missing the mark in critical ways.

Nonie: And there’s this pervasive misconception out there across the sectors of education. Rather than the test performance being a consequence of good process teaching and learning, we think, “Oh no, I don’t have time for that stuff.”

Carol: Yes. It requires a leap of faith to think that effective joyful learning will show up in students’ performance and to not just teach to the test. Let good test performance be a by-product of good learning.

Nonie: So, I have one last question. Early educators have a demanding job. It requires a lot of emotional and physical labor and educators are often underpaid, so there’s turbulence and stress in the system. Do you have thoughts on how we reduce stress among those working in challenging environments?

Carol: Growth mindset won’t compensate for low, survival-level wages. But, I have said to new teachers that they should try to go in as learners. It can help to think, “Hey, this is the worst I’ll ever be as a teacher. I will only get better, and it’s about how to learn to be a more responsive and effective teacher.” This gives new teachers the time and leeway to think about learning and improvement in themselves as well as their students.

Nonie: Yeah, it’s really about adults thinking of themselves as learners and developmental beings.

Carol: Absolutely. To think that they are finished products is not helpful.

Nonie: Right. I can’t thank you enough for sharing your time and expertise with us, Carol. This is such an important topic for the field of early education and care. We especially appreciate your insights on the importance of experimentation and having confidence that joyful learning will show up in students’ performance. It’s been such a pleasure to talk with you!

Please join us for our next blog, where we’ll hear from Amy Edmondson about creating psychological safety within organizations.

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